Who Lucy is
As the family describe her
A Cane Corso, a year and a half old and about 80 pounds, bought from a breeder (a cousin later bought a puppy from the same breeder). Reported, not measured.
On film
she is a year and a half holy crap did she get bigger since she came home because i haven't seen her yeah she's she's about 80 pounds
they see an 80 plus pound connie corso going at another dog or a person
Obedience broadly fine; the problems are the recall in the woods and behaviour toward people in the house.
On film
because her training is fine like she's doing all of her commands for the most part
it's just not recalling in the woods and then in the house like jumping over furniture to get to people
Recall fails around prey and drifts on 'let's go'. She chased a deer that jumped the fence, and the owner had to find her with the collar's beeper; she ignored him for a rabbit at 2 a.m. with no collar on; she went across a road after a deer. At home, with a ball, she comes back.
On film
when we do let's go, um, it's like, she'll start going further and further and further.
away she went and uh i mean at that point i was using the the the beeper yeah on her collar yeah just as uh just to figure out where she was at
i took her out the other night and she woke me up at like two o'clock in the morning for some reason obviously i didn't put the the collar back
got to be instant she went out across the road i mean yeah again the deer went across the road
Reactive to visitors and to dogs. A cousin needed two days and a leash; a very large friend was rejected; a college-age nephew who reached toward the ball she brought was lunged at. She accepts about five people. Off-leash neighbour dogs drew raised hackles and lunging, with Henry bouncing alongside.
On film
and she lost her mind she's like nope that's not what i did she jump away from him and bark she lunged towards him
so everybody else she's like get the hell away from here
you know lucy you know she saw him hair comes up you know she's lunging
Movement is the trigger with visitors: a seated guest is tolerated, a guest who stands up is not.
On film
because you know if if he was sitting here she was okay it's like you know i gotta get up to go to the bathroom he'd go to get up and she'd just lose her mind again
She has done bite work on a sleeve and a suit. The owner's question is whether she treats a visitor as an emergency. He also says she has never tried to attack him or his wife, and has never redirected onto Henry.
On film
as long as i know that she will stop then okay because like she'll bite the sleeve i know that um or she's bitten like the suit
but the question is whether or not she's taking this as an emergency situation or not
She never tried to attack me or the wife.
E-collar levels of 50 and then 75, on Christian's advice, made no difference to her.
On film
i had it at like 75 yeah because christian's like oh well you know put it up to 50 yeah i put it on 50 and she didn't give a shit
I hit it and I could see her neck yeah I know you felt I know you felt it but she still went through it
Other reported habits: she refuses to load into the truck until a leash is looped over her neck, and has to be shoved out at the park; she charges and body-checks at the gate; she prefers ball and frisbee to tug; her marker word is 'yes'.
On film
when i load her up in the truck i mean i'll open the door i'll tell her to load up and a lot of times she'll sit there and be like no
she jumps on you probably she'll come running like i'll walk in the gate and she'll come charging
running when she heard yes i was trying to remember what hers was yeah hers was yes
As the trainer describes her
He has worked with her before but has not seen her in a while. He remembers her as possessive in play and unwilling to tug with him at first, and he guesses she has gained about 20 pounds since.
On film
because like when i was with her she was overly possessive she would play ball she didn't play tug with me at first
so she probably gained 20 pounds since since i last saw her
We were friends once.
The diagnosis, which is his: cooperation is present 'in spades'; socialization and fulfilment are not the issue; the problem is authority, plus habituation to the e-collar.
On film
like a um socialization or fulfillment issue not a cooperation issue to me this seems just like straightforwardly an authority issue and also like a habituation issue with the e-collar where she's not really sensitized to it
you just have to have some authority over them where they like they're compliant when you need them to be and that's it
Recall is a reliability problem, not an understanding problem: she knows 'here' and is choosing the more interesting thing.
On film
She's just blowing you off because that's more interesting.
with like the recall specifically you're having a reliability issue not an understanding issue
So when she lags she's lagging because she can
Her barking at his entry reads to him as defensive; he interprets her visitor reactivity as trying to control movement in the house, with sudden movement and noise read as threats.
On film
okay so that's defensive that's good so now the problem that we have is reacting right
So she's trying to, she's essentially trying to control movement in the house, and then also seeing movement and like loud, like unexpected noises as threatening is probably what's happening.
Wary of strangers by temperament, which he treats as appropriate for a protection dog: she refuses a treat from a shop clerk, so she will not obey a stranger in the yard.
On film
and she's wary of strangers right overall if she won't take the treat from the lady she won't come
she was then it would just mean she's a bad candidate for a protection dog potentially
As the recordings show
- She did not sprint at the trainer when he entered, loose and not under a command; she barked. On the second entry she sat beside the owner, then sniffed the trainer, and a moment of eye contact startled her. A foot tap drew a big bark. She stared at the trainer rather than fetching for him.
- On the walk she stayed much closer than the owner says is normal, looked between the owner and the trainer, went further out once and came back without being called, showed interest but no chase when the trainer played prey, and answered the one test recall at once.
The program, stage by stage
Before the visit, off camera
Undated; before this visit.
By both men's account Lucy has history with the company. The trainer has worked with her before and remembers her from before she 'came home'; he says in Part 3 that this is his first in-person meeting with the owner, whom he has only spoken to on the phone. The owner has had several sessions with Christian, including recall work in the woods where Christian saw her run off and had to be stern, and a most recent session at the house. Christian had advised e-collar levels of 50 and 75 and a hands-in-pockets approach for visitors. She has done sleeve and suit bite work (who ran it is not stated).
On film
um but from at least from last time that i've worked with her
we've talked a couple times on the phone this first time we've met in person
you guys did the wood stuff and walked around the woods
christian originally told me um basically when you had someone come over just have them put their hands in their pockets and kind of walk by don't look at her
History and a choice about what to learn (Part 1)
Start of the visit.
No training on camera. The owner gives the history; the trainer sets out his program categories (evaluation, cooperation, socialization, fulfilment, authority), judges the first four present and names authority as the gap. He separates three linked problems - recall, reactivity to animals and dogs, and visitors - and says only two can be worked today because dog reactivity needs another dog. He then offers the owner a choice for the doorbell test: come in wearing gloves and learn whether she would bite, or correct from the start. Because she is protection-trained, he reasons that a bite is not the fault but a failure to out would be, and that letting her do it might damage the protection work. They choose to correct: the owner says 'out', then a stern 'nope', and the trainer times an e-collar tap on a high level. He justifies starting high with a rat study on sensitization and habituation.
On film
we have three things we're going to be able to work with two of them today because the reactivity one we're going to have to do somewhere or at least have a dog available
her first then we won't see what she's actually going to do if i do that first then the correction
right so it wouldn't be bad if she actually did the bad part would be that she didn't out right
Then just hit her with a really stern nope, and I'll choose when to tap the e-collar.
The door, twice, and the collar lands (Part 2)Turning point
Same visit.
He enters in gloves as a precaution; she is loose and does not sprint at him; the owner cues stop/out then nope as she barks. On the second entry she sits beside the owner and then sniffs the trainer on the couch. The owner later says she 'felt that one a lot more' and lay down after a verbal stop. The trainer cannot say whether the quieter second trial was learning or just suppression and lost novelty. The owner says this is the calmest she has been with anyone outside her five people.
On film
So it seems like the e-collar did stop her this time, which they've not been able to do in the past.
felt that one a lot more i mean she let out yeah and she jumped
I'm assuming that it probably will, even if it's just from like a little bit of suppression and it not being as novel because I already walked up. So it's gonna be hard to distinguish between the two,
this is the chillest she's she's been with someone other than like i said the five yeah in us okay and this happened a lot faster as well yes
The owner lesson: out is a command, nope is the punisher (Part 2)Turning point
Same visit, between the second and third trials.
The owner reveals he has used 'nope' for every correction and never 'out', which he took to belong to protection work. The trainer rebuilds the chain: barking at the door is allowed and should be praised for strangers who stay outside; 'out' means stop and carries no consequence if obeyed; only if she does not out does 'nope' come, and then the collar. Tapping straight after 'out' would turn the command into a punisher. For recall ('Lucy, here') he prescribes 'nope' and a tap at the highest level every time she does not turn, because she thinks recall is optional. He explains why the trainer, not the owner, holds the collar today: so the owner can concentrate on the words, and because she must listen to the owner, not to a visitor she may see once a year.
On film
literally uh you know i haven't used out yeah at all because i yeah i assumed that it was just tied to the defense stuff
so that's why it's important that like when we when we punish this that we're making sure that we're not punishing the act of going and barking right
the highest level right reason is because right now she thinks it's optional already right so we have to reverse it
she doesn't need to care about me she might see me you know once a year right who knows like how often she's gonna see me but she sees you every day and she needs to listen to you right
Third trial after a full reset: a real out (Part 3)Turning point
Same visit, after the trainer drove away for five or six minutes.
She gives the full barking reaction; by the trainer's narration the owner says 'out' once, then 'nope', and she quits. The trainer tells the camera that one or two clear punishment events can change how a dog sees a situation, but limits that to something the dog already knows and has been ignoring at lower levels; he would object to anyone teaching a fresh dog that way. After a short suppression he calls it 'a real out', and has the owner let her calm, walk about and sniff him, calling her over informally rather than with the recall word.
On film
he said out one time and i think he said nope and she she chilled out she quit it so that's effective
makes it go your authority goes from here to here like in two events just those two punishment events because she goes holy crap he meant it right
actually she's out now that's a real out she's outed now
The recall test that could not fail (Part 3)
Same visit, late afternoon or evening, on the property and a trail.
The plan was to catch a real recall failure at a distracted moment and correct the lag at a prey-chase level, with the owner giving the cue and the trainer silent. It never came. With the trainer present she stayed close, as she had with Christian, and though a squirrel was seen and the trainer played prey, she did not chase. The owner walked off while the trainer held her back, she was recalled, and 'she was perfect', so no correction was given. The trainer is 'disappointed but it's not her fault'. A last try with her off the leash ends the part without a recorded result, and Part 4 opens with 'we don't get a chance to correct it'.
On film
When I walked with Christian the other day,
a novel piece in the puzzle that creates different behavior which is a problem
you can go ahead start walking and then just keep walking and i'll hold her back for a second lucy here here break break break lucy here break and she was perfect
her now i was i'm disappointed but it's not her fault
Homework and the owner's goal: a deterrent that never bites (Part 4)
Close of the visit, outdoors, evening.
Lucy is loose and near them. The owner explains why he has her: a delivery driver wandered the property while his wife sat outside, she brought Lucy out on a lead, a few low barks were enough and the man's behaviour changed. He wants a deterrent when he is not home, and would rather deal with an intruder himself than have Lucy bite and be ordered destroyed. The trainer's ideal is a dog that never bites anyone in her life and only prevents. Homework: long line, let her go, recall at a distracted moment, and if she does not flip round, 'nope' with the collar all the way up - safe because she knows 'here' - probably only once or twice ever; text the result, ideally with video. Then his philosophy: few functional commands, choice points rather than management, flexis and long lines rather than six-foot leashes, and a warning that holding a reactive dog back reinforces the barking. Success, to him, is her running off, being recalled and punished, and coming back.
On film
and i told her i said that's why i wanted the dog yeah because if i'm not here you can put the fear of god into somebody without me here
She never attacks a person. She gets old and dies and she never ever does it.
and you recall her if she doesn't flip right around and you immediately say nope and put it on the highest yeah just put it all the way up
like this is how it went and I'm hoping for success success for me would be that she ran off
Skills
Stopping at the door on 'out' (visitor reactivity)
How it was taught
Doorbell trials with Lucy loose in the house. The owner cues 'out'; if she does not stop, 'nope'; the trainer times an e-collar tap on a high level. Barking itself is never the target. Between trials, an owner lesson on why the order matters. In the third trial even small barks and growls are outed at once, and after the out she is given calm time with the visitor.
On film
just tell her to stop tell her out and then if she doesn't out till her nope right and I'll back it with the e-collar if needed
if she does anything even just like the little barks like yeah the little growls and barks and stuff like that out her off of that
clear punishment event can change how a dog views the situation entirely but there's still a little bit more clarity that needs to be gained here for lucy um because she needs to stop entirely
the point where she's like oh okay wait i don't have to like get punished and run away i can just like come and like hang out
Recall ('Lucy, here')
How it was taught
Rules first: never use the recall word when you cannot enforce it (use 'the moomoos' instead); the owner cues and the trainer stays silent so the authority attaches to the owner. Method: on a 50-foot line at a distracted moment - not mid-chase - pick up the end, call 'Lucy, here', and if she does not whip round, 'nope' and a tap at the top of the dial; correct even lingering. Afterwards 'nope' and a much lower level should do, and once she is reliable she may even be allowed a few seconds of chasing.
On film
you're in a situation where you're not sure if she would recall like you're not 100 certain and you don't have a way to ensure compliance right um then don't recall at all
right so the way that you get rid of the lag for the prey chase is you do it for the you punish the lag when they're not in the prey chase but you use a level like they are in the prey chase
and so just just the lingering part we'll say nope even if it looks like she's she's probably going to come back we want to get rid of the linger
then you say lucy come and if she or lucy here and if she doesn't boom you drop the hammer right full bore
Barking at strangers outside, on permission (homework only)
How it was taught
For strangers who are not coming in, praise the barking actively ('good girl, get him'); for friends and family, 'out', then 'nope' if needed, every time, so she learns patterns and takes her context from the owner. Keep praising some real alarms or she will start to think barking itself is wrong.
On film
don't just be neutral about it be like good job yeah good girl get him
context and you want them to take their context cues from you
because if you never praise it she will start to think i shouldn't do that even with the out in between
How the method adapted
Lucy is not a new dog being taught; she is a trained, protection-worked adult who knows her words and has learned that her owner's corrections are optional. Almost every choice on the visit follows from that diagnosis, and the trainer says more than once that the same moves would be wrong for a dog that did not already know the behaviour.
Start at the top of the dial instead of building up.
Because she had already been walked up through 50 and 75 and habituated. The trainer's reasoning is a sensitization study: start high and a later, lower level carries the meaning; creep up and the effective level ends several times higher. He limits it explicitly to a known behaviour being ignored.
On film
cuz in it like I normally wouldn't do this but in this instance it makes sense to me in terms of what she like the kind of stuff she's doing I might just start with it up
the level that you you have to put it at for it to be effective is like three times higher than what it would have been if you started out
they already know right because like that's not a good way to teach a dog right if i'm starting with like fresh slate if i catch somebody doing that i'll be like dude what the hell are you what are you doing putting the e-collar up high and punishing like that
Correct instead of testing the bite, and aim the correction at the failure to out rather than at the aggression.
Because she is protection-trained: the owner wants her to bite only if a scenario calls for it, so the bite is not the fault and letting her do it might 'mess up the protection part'.
On film
doing like protection with her you want her to actually bite right um if the scenario calls for it only if right yeah only if right but she needs to be able to distinguish between those two things
it could mess up the protection part if i just let her do it
Keep barking legal: 'out' before 'nope', and praise the alarm at real strangers.
Because the owner got her to be a deterrent. The punisher must attach to not stopping, never to going to the door and barking.
On film
if she runs up to the door that's not necessarily a bad thing right
the condition punisher is what it's called um then she'll start to associate that with barking at the door generally and think okay that's wrong
have to say not right now somehow right and that's kind of the point you have to build in a not right now
The trainer holds the collar, the owner holds the words, and the trainer keeps quiet on the recall.
Because she already listens to Christian and would listen to this trainer; the gap is the owner's authority, so the cues must be his. The trainer runs the button only to spare the owner a split task.
On film
say anything because otherwise then it'll just be the same as Christian
we need to listen to you so it needs to be certain for you so we need to attach that to you
A full reset to get a genuine reaction, then deliberate calm time after the out.
Because a returning visitor is expected and the second trial could not be separated from suppression; the calm afterwards is meant to teach that 'out' means everything is fine.
On film
this time I actually drove away. I drove away and drove around for about five, six minutes because I wanted a full reset.
yeah and don't use a recall because then you'll have to reinforce it so just be like
When his own presence prevented the failure he needed, he changed the test rather than forcing it: first playing prey himself, then proposing to recall her away from her departing owner, and finally handing the whole exercise to the owner alone.
Because she stays close whenever a trainer is present, which the owner confirms is unusual for her.
On film
So what I'm gonna be doing here, since we haven't seen the prey thing
that's what i was telling christian you know when he was here last it's like this is very uncommon for her to not be in a command and be right on top of you
on this 50 foot long line and then when you see that she's a little distracted don't do it when she's chasing something already
What the family was told
The diagnosis: authority, not the relationship
drill sergeant you can just be like their buddy but they have to know like there there has to be
like a um socialization or fulfillment issue not a cooperation issue to me this seems just like straightforwardly an authority issue
Out, then nope, then the collar - never the collar after out
make sure you don't say nope make sure you say out right
the order of that is important that you out first and then say nope
if you just say out and then tap this what does that turn out into that's now the negative that's now a punishment we're just like the other one and then it's not a command
they're punished by the look and so she should be punished by the nope
How dogs learn: association, negative reinforcement versus punishment
the way that dogs learn is it's all associative right so they associate one thing with another
so then the pressure releases and so then it reinforces so you can teach with that you don't teach with like the you don't teach what to do with the punishment right
reinforcement once a dog already knows a thing you move you have to move from escape to avoidance
we end up nagging them nag nag nag nag nag nag nag and unfortunately a nag can be a 70 on an e-collar right
Barking: when to praise and when to out
like somebody you don't know comes up, up and she starts going don't tell her to stop at all right unless they're gonna come inside
grandma comes over, you know, like, you know, like your friend comes over, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, out.
Recall rules and the homework
right instead just be like oh you know like i call it the moomoos
that long line and let her go bananas do whatever she's gonna do have fun and then when she's at
is that she if she doesn't if she's not clear on what the word here means then she'll just panic and run that's not the case here she knows what here means
as high as it can go probably one or two times totally you'll ever have to do it
like urgency if we get urgency when it's not urgent then you're a lot more likely to get urgency when it is urgent
now now you'll have to do it yeah just in case
Reporting back
you say lucy here i want you to notice and like send us a text does it look different
stay in contact let us just send a text to that same number you've been texting
Philosophy: choice points, few commands, long leashes
that's management right you're using obedience to manage
You give them choice points.
So anytime you're thinking, okay, um, she might do this. So I'm going to do this so that she doesn't do that. Don't do it. Just have a way to obligate her if she does do it.
they bark that person goes away and this pressure goes away because they finish barking and they
You just did a protection drill.
How long, and the collar coming off
If you like start consistently for six months, you never have to go to the e-collar.
some dogs there's dogs that'll just never be off the eco
In the family's own words
His goal for recall is freedom with a guaranteed return, not a close heel.
On film
And that's what I told Christian. I don't particularly care if she's 50 feet away from me.
this this is what i want right here is her basically off leash
He wants a deterrent, and does not want her ever to bite and be put down.
On film
she didn't you know she didn't you know try to attack the guy or nothing but you know it's a deterrent
because i don't want some judge having me put my dog down
He had misunderstood 'out' as a protection-only word, and says the visit cleared things up; he plans to try the homework the next morning.
On film
from my previous understanding yeah i was associating out with only the home defense
I plan on you know trying this out try tomorrow morning
thank you much for all the information because you did obviously clear things up
Outcomes
What the trainers reported
The e-collar stopped her at the door for the first time.
The trainer, to camera, Part 2.
On film
So it seems like the e-collar did stop her this time, which they've not been able to do in the past.
The calmest she has been with anyone outside her five people, and it happened faster.
An exchange between trainer and owner, Part 2; the owner confirms it.
On film
this is the chillest she's been this is super chill for this isn't normal no
Two punishment events moved the owner's authority a long way.
The trainer, Part 3.
On film
makes it go your authority goes from here to here like in two events just those two punishment events
The homework will make her ordinary recall faster.
The trainer, Part 3 - a prediction, not a result.
On film
and like send us a text does it look different and if you do it right i guarantee that she'll be like
What the footage shows
Across three doorbell trials in one visit her reaction shortened: by the trainer's narration the third full reaction stopped on one 'out' and a 'nope'.
On film
See, now we're getting a full reaction. We're getting the barking, which is fine.
he said out one time and i think he said nope and she she chilled out she quit it so that's effective
A visitor was able to sit on her couch and be sniffed; she was still startled by eye contact and barked at a foot tap.
On film
if she comes and checks me out yeah that's good she's just her nose is activated now and she's sniffing me but I just made eye contact with her for a second and that freaked her out
So like if I tap my foot, that's a thing.
No recall failure happened on the walk, and one test recall was immediate.
On film
i saw she did get further away from you one time much further away than normal but when you recalled she came right back you didn't recall she just kind of came off it
i got a little bit i was convincing enough to get some interest but not enough interest to get her to chase
The ideas Lucy's case runs on
- Assess before you ask
- Command, marker, collar - in that order
- Control is not obedience
- Escape before avoidance: the collar backs a word the dog already knows
- He has to be allowed to get it wrong
- Put the unwanted behaviour on cue
- The dog is a different dog for his owner - and authority transfers
- The level is not a number